Healing Through Photography, Wood Burning, and the Craft

********* TRIGGER ALERT - BRIEF MENTION OF SUICIDAL IDEATION **********

What if creativity could be a ritual that heals the deepest parts of you? We sit down with River Root—recovering attorney, self-taught artist, and unabashed classic car nerd—to explore how black-and-white photography, wood burning, and intention turned a life marked by breast cancer into a canvas for meaning. River shares the turning point from evangelical roots to an earth-centered spiritual practice, why a first group ritual felt like coming home, and how incense, music, and a pyrography pen create a flow state where time loosens and the soul gets loud.

Details

The conversation travels through the intimate details that shape an artist’s eye: macro shots of headlights that look like diamonds, architectural cornices and doorways, and the sacred geometry hidden in everyday objects. We talk about the leap from posting photos in a phone-saturated world to transforming images into tactile keepsakes on wood, sometimes finished with watercolor, and soon with handcrafted sigils. Along the way, River opens up about language and illness—why “warrior” talk can harm, how hair loss makes an invisible battle suddenly public, and what it meant to choose life without reconstruction and still claim beauty, style, and desire on her own terms.

We also wrestle with the word “crone”: the stereotypes, the impostor feelings, and the reframing that turns it into autonomy, earned wisdom, and the freedom to design a life you actually want. There’s humor (“my boobs tried to kill me”), tenderness, and practical insight on turning intention into practice, embracing authenticity when it isn’t universally loved, and finding your people by making the art only you can make. If you’re curious about ritual, creativity, witchcraft, body image, or how to rebuild after a hard season, this one will stay with you long after it ends.

If this conversation moved you, tap follow, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so others can find the show. Your support helps keep the magic flowing.

Contact

Instagram - River Root

Chapters

• 0:07 Welcome And Host Intros
• 1:20 Meet River Root And Her Art
• 2:36 From Evangelical Upbringing To Witchcraft
• 4:22 Rituals, Tattoos, And Intention
• 9:33 Photography To Wood Burning
• 13:49 Flow State And Making Art A Practice
• 19:56 Duality: Black‑And‑White Versus Color
• 25:36 Classic Cars, Headlights, And Geometry
• 33:50 Expanding Craft And Learning To Draw
• 37:02 Cancer, Catharsis, And Courage
• 45:15 Body Image, Flat Choice, And Identity
• 54:06 Hair Loss, Visibility, And Language
• 1:01:44 The Meaning Of Crone And Imposter Feelings
• 1:10:32 Choices, Motherhood, And Life Paths
• 1:16:20 Authenticity, Community, And Kindness
• 1:17:49 Thank Yous And Listener CTAs

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:07

Welcome to the Mystical Mermaid Lounge Podcast, a space where all spiritual speakers are honored and celebrated. This podcast was born from the journeys of your hosts, who have each faced her own dark night of the song. But they've emerged with an unshakable belief in divine connection, cosmic inspiration, and her true life's calling. Join us on a journey of personal growth, transformation, and magical self-discovery. Your first co-host is Chloe Brown, a gifted intuitive empath and shadow work life coach. Your second co-host is Keoni Starr, an intuitive energy worker, an acclaimed past life regressionist. The Mystical Mermaid Lounge Podcast starts now.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10

Today we have River Root with us. River Root is a recovering attorney and a self-taught artist who started exploring art as an outlet while going through breast cancer for the second time. She has always loved black and white photography, which is stunning, but wanted to find a way to use her photo as an inspiration for other mediums as well. When her best friend introduced her to wood burning, an idea was born to create these colorful recreations of her own photos. Oh, four.

SPEAKER_01: 2:15

Now it's four. Love it. Love it. I'm not a Hoosier fan. Is this a sports thing? Yes. Oh, I went to grad school and lived in Tallahassee for almost 20 years. I went to Florida State for law school. And believe me, I am a seminole head to toe.

SPEAKER_03: 2:36

Could you please tell us about your spiritual journey? Kick this off.

SPEAKER_01: 2:42

All right. It goes back only if just a few years, actually. I believe it was no 2021, actually. And it started largely right after I had an epiphany that maybe I was actually this thing that I had always learned growing up was evil. You know, I mean I came from a very evangelical upbringing. And the thought of calling myself a witch sunk into it real fast, which was another big clip. Very shortly after I started listening to the Magic Kitchen podcast. And Elise, I don't even couldn't even tell you exactly how I even found it. I really can't, but I found it super early on and started listening and was just like, oh my gosh, these ladies are incredible. I started getting books and I was reading more and this and that. And I really didn't have anybody to talk to about it. I just I didn't know any other witches. I did find out not too long later that a neighbor in this complex that we lived in was into witchy stuff and had a bunch of books and whatever. And we chatted a little bit, but she was so in the closet that she wouldn't even do a ritual with the garage door open. She did not want anyone knowing anything. It was really hard to actually talk to her about it because she was just really closed off. And that's fine. That's her path, not mine. So anyway, it just kept growing. At some point, I realized that I could put some of my intentions and what I was learning into some of the art I was creating. And I ended up, I ended up meeting Elise last year. We went out and I did the hikate tea with her and her high priestess at the sanctuary and went through the croning ritual, which is there's a lot of crone stuff we can. I know, I know, but it was really cool. It was really cool. It was outside and it was fall, it's like in November. It was just gorgeous and it's just beautiful. Elise had asked me to make her a piece of art, one of my wood burning utensils. And so I got to deliver it in person and then go through the it was so cool. It was so cool. We had the best time. I mean, if I had any question about my path before that, that was it.

SPEAKER_02: 5:28

How did you go from evangelical to witch?

SPEAKER_01: 5:32

Well, I'm totally the black sheep of the whole family, without any doubt. I had moved, I had for a long time, I should say, in between the two, I was really in a bit more in a mindset of nature is my church kind of thing. And I wasn't atheist because I I have had way too many experiences with various things to think that there isn't something out there higher, higher power or powers. So being an atheist was certainly never on the agenda for me, but it was very spiritual, and it just moved into that. I had started searching for I know I feel like there's something more, but I wasn't really sure what it was. And then I actually showed this to Elise recently, and can you see it?

SPEAKER_03: 6:22

Yes, how pretty is that the sun tattoo with the spiral?

SPEAKER_02: 6:28

You know what that looks very indigenous North American. I had no idea. And that did she tell you about what the spiral means in the elements.

SPEAKER_01: 6:38

In the elements, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:41

I think that's air. I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01: 6:43

I feel like I've heard that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:45

Yeah, isn't it? I think that's air. So you have two elements on your arm.

SPEAKER_01: 6:49

And I had no idea when I got it.

SPEAKER_02: 6:52

I had no idea. I'm telling you, there are tattoo gods.

SPEAKER_01: 6:57

Oh, well, and it's right in line with what I've always said, which is it was a quote I saw somewhere before I got my first tattoo, and it said, tattoos are art. It's art that's always been there. It just wasn't on the outside. And so you bring it to the outside, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:14

So I love that. I think that's so beautiful. We're talking about this, because as we know, we've been having this kind of sidebar conversation in a chat thread we're all a part of. Uh it's just been on my mind a lot what you're saying, actually, is how tattoos can truly be that inner thought, that inner voice, that inner beauty and artwork translated from the inner to the outer. I had never thought of this, but I've always felt a little shameful of this wall art tattoo I got when I was like three days out of boot camp in Florida. And we were told that day we weren't allowed to. So of course that's what I did. So I'm at the tattoo parlor, like you know, head on a swivel, freaking out, I'm gonna get in trouble because I'm in a blacklisted area right now. And so I just quickly point on something on the wall and five seconds it felt like maybe 10 minutes in reality, it's done. And so I have this Celtic butterfly on my ankle. But now that I'm in my 40s, it is so symbolic. And I hadn't recognized that until River, you just said that. Oh, that's so cool. That is crazy. Sorry, I digress. So it sounds like art really truly is something that spoke to you, whether it was through the community of the culture, of any religious or belief system, all the way through into the nature that really sucked you in and potentially obvious. We all know that Chloe believes in synchronicity is pretty big. I talk about it every episode, but the synchronicity of you finding the Magic Kitchen podcast, which is at least I found it, because I thought I was Googling a recipe, I didn't even know what podcasts was. That was actually how I found the podcast world. So it's sometimes it's just that weird synchronicity that's fully unexpected that puts us in a whole different path. So, how did you embody the beauty of the nature and what it spoke to you and how it spoke to you? And how did you come to the knowing that this translates into art for you?

SPEAKER_01: 9:33

I think I've always enjoyed taking pictures ever since I was a kid, but I'd really gotten away from it. We all have different hobbies when we're kids, and then it goes by the wayside. But Drew is such a prolific photographer and very talented. I learned a lot from them, especially when we first got together. I would go out and actually help them out in the field, and I would take a few pictures, but it was really trying to spot different areas. But I learned a lot about framing and things like that. And so it just took off from there. And I knew I loved black and white photography. I was able, at some point, I I finally got a better camera so that I could really do what I wanted to do, and I've been enjoying it immensely. The reason I branched out from that is not because I don't enjoy photography, but in this day and age, everybody has a cell phone in their pocket, and you can get great pictures with your cell phone, but it's hard to do anything with pictures when everybody's got a camera in their pocket because they're just like, oh, point and click. They don't think about the editing and different things that go into it. So, anyway, I want to figure out something to do with my pictures. I've got all these great pictures. Yeah, I can put some of them up, but at some point you start running out of memory space, and you're like, What am I gonna even do with these? So I started picking out different ones to trace with carbon paper onto wood and then burn. And it was just so much fun, and I really want to add some color to it, so I got the watercolors out, and I was like, Well, watercolor might work because it's gonna soak into the wood, right? I love it, it's really cool. Now, on a lot of the utensils that I do, they are not colored for the primary reason that if you want to use it in a liquid or something, I don't want to inhibit that.

SPEAKER_02: 11:39

Yeah, that makes sense because you want to be able to utilize it, not worry about ingesting paints and turkin and mineral. All these things that are so delicious and they work if you're a horse and have colic as well.

SPEAKER_01: 11:53

Oh, good to know. Good to know. I'll just tuck that in the back of my brain for a later date.

SPEAKER_02: 11:59

Next time you're constipated, let me know, River.

unknown: 12:02

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02: 12:04

You may have the answer right in your art show.

SPEAKER_01: 12:11

I honestly, I I probably won't let you know, but good to know.

SPEAKER_00: 12:20

Well, the thought will be there.

SPEAKER_01: 12:22

Well, thank you. That's so kind of you.

SPEAKER_03: 12:27

Oh my gosh, my cheeks hurt. That was so great.

SPEAKER_01: 12:30

That was great. I think that of course there are always multiple steps along the way, but as far as how you get from point A to point to D, E, F, etc., really, my mom being so creative really encouraged me to keep doing stuff. I'm literally in the process of getting my room back together after painting. So check out the lamp. I don't know if you can see that was my mom's, and we brought it in with the pink walls, and I just was like, Oh so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03: 13:04

It looks so gorgeous. All your hard work is paying off.

SPEAKER_01: 13:08

She was so creative that I would show her stuff and she's like, You made this, whatever it was, and I'm like, Yeah, and she's like, You were never into art growing up, which I wasn't. I always was like, Oh my gosh, I am the worst artist ever. Like in art class, it was all I could do to get through the class. Seriously, it was really bad. That's why I thought I couldn't do it for years. So I wish I could make something cool like that. And that's part of why I got into photography because it did not entail drawing, because I am not good at drawing at all. But I also didn't realize at that point that there are techniques to learn, and pretty much anybody can learn to do these things. So I started out with learning line drawing with flowers and stuff like that and practicing, practicing, and I got better. I can't sit there and do like an urban scape with all the perspective, and I would love to be able to do that. That's not my thing. That's okay. I found ways to make art that I could do and that I felt good about, and I found I really enjoyed it and it was relaxing, and then fast forward to the last few years, and I feel like this like you really get into almost like a meditative flow state when you're doing it, and that's when it was like this could be part of my practice. Why can't I combine these? And that's where it came to be. And I just it felt really good to do it, and I really enjoy doing pieces that I can put intention into. And now, thanks to some other things I've been learning about, my next step is creating more sigils to put on the utensils. I'll have to thank Ember Faye for that one. It was a brilliant idea. I knew I wanted to put some symbols on there, and I was thinking symbols of the elements, and they were like, wait a minute, have you ever made any sigils? No, I haven't. I've always been interested, but that's not an area I've really delved into for whatever reason. But guess what?

SPEAKER_02: 15:23

It's coming. What does that flow state feel like? And I can't imagine when you start making sigils, whether you're devising these symbols yourself or whether you're taking somebody else's symbology and making it your own. I want to be there in that flow state. I want to see that.

SPEAKER_01: 15:45

You lose track of time and you're just, I don't know. I will put on some music and just usually a lot of times I'll burn some incense as well. Think about it if you're gonna go meditate, and that's what it feels like. It really is a similar feeling.

SPEAKER_03: 16:06

So it sounds like for you it's fairly ritualistic in its own right.

SPEAKER_01: 16:12

Yeah, I would say so. I would say so, which is interesting because before I went to the hikate tea and the croning ritual, I had never done a group ritual in my entire life. I was very excited and I really wanted to do it, but I had never done that. Then I came back from that and you know, there's some similarities here. And of course, it takes more than a couple minutes for it all to gel and process through your head. I really do feel that way, that it is a type of ritual that I do.

SPEAKER_03: 16:44

Yeah, that word rituals, at least for me, it carries this really heavy weight, not necessarily like a bad or a good. It just has a weight to it. And it was very uh intimidating to me, that word. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 16:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03: 16:58

And so I think this is gonna sound so silly, but I think really what snapped me out of that was uh who knows where I heard it, or I would love to give some credit. I heard somebody talk about probably on the magic kitchen, how even blowing out a birthday candle that's on a cupcake, how ritualistic that is, and how we've subdued things and taken out the word ritual, which is perhaps why we feel like ritual has such a heavy weight when in reality it's something we do almost second nature all the time. Like when I close my front door, I always do a double check on the twisty and the poolie to make sure it's snapped in. I mean, technically that's a ritual too.

SPEAKER_01: 17:41

It is. Actually, talking about the birthday candle, that's a tradition. I feel like there's a lot of overlap between ritual and tradition. You have certain holiday traditions that translates very easily to these are our holiday rituals. But also, I feel like the word ritual is actually making a big comeback. And part of that's from working at the library because I see a lot of the new books coming in, and I'm starting to see more self-help books come in talking about even in the title, your morning ritual, your relaxation rituals, your how to create rituals. It just had caught my attention in the last few months, I would say, that there's a lot of books coming out that talk about the beauty of having your own personal rituals. I feel like it's becoming a more mainstream word than it used to be.

SPEAKER_02: 18:38

I have a friend who who was raised Catholic and has always been just very much like you, River, just very spiritual, could never be atheist, definitely was branching away from more of the dogmatic traditional religions because primarily for her, she's very much into female rights and didn't want to be told how she should vote and what is considered right and wrong for female, reproductive rights, and all of those things. But I bring this up because she had a granddaughter just newly born and was posting pictures of the christening and the beautiful dress and the beautiful blankets. And I said, This is so elaborate. How was your day? She said, you know, I'm not feeling the Catholic thing, but I realized ritual gives me comfort. And I thought about that. And as you are both talking about the ritual of whether it's double checking for comfort to make sure that you have your lock fully engaged for your door, or for you, river, to do the kind of meditative flow state and light some incense and do your thing, listen to certain types of music while you're painting. I guess it gives us comfort.

SPEAKER_01: 20:07

Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. You set the stage for yourself, depending on what you're doing. But yeah, it's checking the doors or having your typical coffee. Those are things that set the day for you. I totally agree with you. I think comfort is definitely a part of that. I hadn't really thought about that word in relation to it, but I think that's perfect.

SPEAKER_02: 20:32

Yeah, me either. To me, it sounds boring and methodical, but once it was reframed in a this gives me comfort, I know what this is and uses something very important. Intention.

SPEAKER_00: 20:48

Ah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:50

Yeah. And so once you set that intention of whatever it is you're doing, then the practice in and of itself becomes magical in reality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 21:03

And honestly, that can be when you're cleaning your floors, or it can be, it could be it isn't for me either, but it could be.

SPEAKER_01: 21:13

I hear it is for some people. Those people are not to be trusted.

SPEAKER_02: 21:19

You know what? I trust them so much. They can come have a ritual at my floor.

SPEAKER_01: 21:25

Oh, you know, I'm gonna have to rethink this. That's a great idea. I love that. Ritual at my place.

SPEAKER_03: 21:34

Saturday morning, right? All of a sudden my address is pain everywhere.

unknown: 21:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 21:43

B Y O P, bring your own products. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 21:47

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03: 21:48

I love that. And Keone is such a word person. I was really intrigued to hear her thoughts on that. So I love that we went down that comfort that ritual helps bring. And that's where I'm able to find that creative flow, like you just said, right? So I think touching back on that, Keoni and I talk a lot about how we believe spirit speaks to us in those moments. And they can they can always look very different, right? So do you feel like your soul's essence really is allowed to be bold and be vulnerable and shine bright through any of your artwork, whether it's photos or wood burning.

SPEAKER_01: 22:34

And is that what this outlet allows for you and fuels for you? I think so, because for example, especially I'm thinking of photography, when you frame a you see a spot in your head and then you frame it in your mind, you have to picture the idea of at least what it's gonna look like. It's not just throwing it around and click, click. A lot of the time, you know, like framing and I have an idea in my head. So when it hits and it comes out like what I was thinking it should look like and what I was looking for, then yes, how can that not be my essence? It's me, it's what I saw. No one else sees it that way. No one else saw it at that exact moment in time, no one will ever see it again. I caught it, if that makes sense. So yeah. Unless you share it with them, and that's the beauty of that right, exactly, exactly. I do think it is, and then when I take it further and recreate it, then I see it in a different way. I've done a lot of my pictures on wood, and then used the burning tools, and then just made it a separate art piece, and it's so interesting to look at them side by side because I hear we've got the black and white photography, and then over here we've got this like vibrantly colored wood piece that was burned and then painted on, and they're so different, and yet you can obviously you see the similarity, but it's just such a different look to it.

SPEAKER_03: 24:16

Do you think that speaks to the inner duality that we feel as humans in not only our day-to-day life, but sometimes moment to moment? And that you are finding this beautiful creativity outlet to capture the black and white version, and then this is how it should be. And then, nope, I'm gonna put color on it and I'm gonna woodburn it, and I'm gonna do whatever I want. And you're finding the beauty in the spectrum instead of being hyper-focused on each one box, and you're finding the beauty in all of it hearing you share that story.

SPEAKER_01: 24:52

You're gonna make me cry again, Chloe. That's so beautiful. That's such a great way to put it. Once again, I hadn't really thought about it in exactly that way. But yeah, because there's something that there's something about black and white photography that just speaks to my core. Maybe that says something about the darkness of my core. I don't know. But at the same time, I love color and I love all this stuff. But I just I like doing the color in a different way, and that is the story of my life. Quite frankly, I do things in a different way than anyone else in my family. I always had to be different. I always had to take the harder path. I always had to, whatever the case may be, you can bet your patootie that River did it the harder way because I don't know. I just I had to learn for myself, but I also had a different idea of what my life would look like. And when I was born, my parents divorced when I was not even one. My mom and I lived with my grandparents. My grandfather was a minister. You know, I spent most of my life up until age nine in church. I am a hundred and fifty percent, if not 200%, sure that nobody in my family saw that little person growing up to be a witch and doing art related to witchcraft and married to another female. The list goes on and on. My life is super different, but it's mine and it is beautiful. And I tried to learn from all the things that I've been through, and I try not to repeat some of the mistakes that my mom made. You notice I said up until age nine, that would be when mom remarried. We don't even have time for a fraction of that story, but I know that she felt very trapped for many years, and there was just no escape, and her life didn't necessarily turn out the way she had envisioned it either. I think that's true for a lot of people. I think she was torn between encouraging me to do my own thing versus encouraging me to not do shit.

SPEAKER_00: 27:19

I don't know how else to put it.

SPEAKER_01: 27:22

But that's probably the general mom consensus. I think please don't do stupid shit.

SPEAKER_02: 27:27

Yeah, like that's the stupid shit column.

SPEAKER_01: 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:31

You just said something so poignant, River. I think I'd love to hear an artist viewpoint on this. We become trapped with our own expectations. She didn't live the life, or you believe she didn't get to live the life that she envisioned for herself. And how that expectation and maybe not meeting it made her feel trapped. And what if you trying to find the perfect frame up when you're viewing through a camera? I'm pretty sure things are aligning for you, not you catching them. I think I don't know. Maybe both. Yeah. Oh, maybe both.

unknown: 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:24

I feel like maybe they're being called to you from yourself, but I like that.

SPEAKER_01: 28:32

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 28:33

Yeah. What about having our expectations? Oh, Rivers going to marry a man. Traditional expectations would be being resulted.

SPEAKER_01: 28:42

And go to law school.

SPEAKER_02: 28:43

And go to law school, right? Doing all of those things. And then did you feel trapped when you were doing the traditional shit?

SPEAKER_01: 28:52

I turned 30. I came out, I got divorced, and I went to law school. Like on my own terms, I went to law school.

SPEAKER_03: 29:01

So you found the bright light in every box that you either were put in or tried to put yourself in. And now you're recognizing that color is where you want to be, that you don't need lines and you don't need these boxes. And you can live authentically and happy.

SPEAKER_01: 29:19

I think sometimes we're too close to what we're doing that we don't see it. I do. That's keone for me. I love having somebody look at what I'm doing from a place of love and going, wow, what you did was amazing. And I know that I've done that for other people, but you don't always get that a lot of the time. Anyway, that's just really beautiful. And I really appreciate you both.

SPEAKER_03: 29:47

You're so welcome, but you deserve it. So tell us what your favorite artist subject is. Oh, take your brain a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

Classic cars. I'm absolutely obsessed with classic cars and headlights on old cars and old old pickups. What is it? I don't know. I've been trying to figure that out. And I feel like oh that's an interesting because people are always surprised when I'm obsessed with cars and headlights and classic cars and just the lines. And I'm always talking about how sexy 50s Bel Airs are and the so big and so it's like a big old tank. It's like volumptuous. But yes, the lumptuous exactly. All those curves. If that's not sexy, I don't know what sexy is. That is just dead sexy.

SPEAKER_02: 30:49

So the lines and the curves that you're drawn to. But what about the headlights? Is it the roundness, the reflective? What is it?

SPEAKER_01: 30:57

I think it is part of the reflections and just the beauty. It's almost like a diamond. When you do a close-up on a headlight, all the little lines and things that are in there, it is almost like a diamond. Each car is just has these incredible shapes to them. I'm gonna send you some pictures this afternoon. You'll see once we get done. I just got busy trying to put my room back together so I could do this in here. But I will send you some of my favorite headlight photos. I've also done a good bit of black and white photography of architecture. And what I love, and it translates because what I love is doing architectural details, like a cornice or a doorknob or just a doorway. I love doorways and doors. Not shocking. Yeah, exactly. So I know where you're thinking. I love doing the details, like I'll do a door handle or the gear shifter. I love the details. Sometimes I do have pictures of a whole car. I don't really tend to do a ton with those. I've done a couple commissions where I did that, but and it was really fun. But a lot of the time I get a lot more enjoyment out of the details and just focusing in and the headlights, there's just so much texture and so much interest shapes and everything in there. I think that's part of what really gets me going. I also love cone flowers and I love drawing coneflowers and bees.

SPEAKER_02: 32:34

The other thing with all of those is the sacred geometry behind all of that. Because of the way that you see the diamond shape and the lines all converging together. Because once you pull out macro, you can't see that sacred geometry as clearly. But when you zoom in and see that headlight and how those things are sparking out and then creating additional geometric shapes, I think that's magical.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

It looks magical to me. I've been obsessed with it ever since I caught my first good photo close up of a headlight and I was hooked. I was like, oh my god, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And I'm just I love them.

SPEAKER_02: 33:19

I can't wait for your past life regression.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

I know.

SPEAKER_02: 33:23

Maybe I was thinking, yeah, maybe she's like a a spectral of Henry Ford. No, you don't want to be that guy. He was a risk.

SPEAKER_01: 33:35

Probably not, but I do own a Ford. Oh, really? Yeah, my truck is a Ford. So I don't know. You don't know. So I'm very excited to find out though. Super excited. I can't wait. I remember like even the first time seeing classic cars and seeing classic pickups. Oh, I love pickups, love them so much, and I've just been obsessed with them. I will go out of my way to go take pictures of these cars. I've never really understood why that was such an interest, but there might be something there. That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 34:16

Wait. So do you go out thinking I'm gonna go shoot some photos or create art today? Or are you in the moment and you're like, oh, where's the camera? All the stars are aligning. How does that transpire?

SPEAKER_01: 34:32

It's been some of both. It's been some of both. Fortunately, here in the Midwest, more so than in Florida, there's car shows on every weekend. Once it's warm enough in the spring until it's too cold in the winter, there are car shows everywhere and such great cars. And part of that, I'm sure, is that I live 45 minutes from the Indianapolis Speedway. So it's and I I love that too. Like the sound of the cars on the track is just yeah, there's all of it.

SPEAKER_03: 35:05

That's so funny. I was not a car fan, but I went to one and it was the coolest experience of my life because I was so close that my shirt, which was white when I started, was full of rubber. Now this is a sport I can get into. So I it really is pretty cool. And my day job is parts for vehicles. And I was that weird child who at six years old, I could walk up to a car. I could be 30 years older than the date of my birth and just be able to call out that year make and model. And so they used to always make fun of me that I just knew all this about cars. So you're not alone, you're speaking my language. I love it. So, what inspired you to transform this to the wood burning?

SPEAKER_01: 35:50

Because I because I just I didn't have really an outlet to share it. I do have an Instagram photography page and I put stuff on there, but that gets kind of old after a while. I just was really wanting to do something more. I was really craving doing something additional, but I didn't want to let the photography go by the wayside. I wasn't looking to trade it in. I was looking to expand it. And that's what the wood burning did for me.

SPEAKER_03: 36:19

And it's bringing that nature back, right? You said you were like really into the nature and still are, as yeah, we know about you.

SPEAKER_00: 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:27

It's bringing that in. It feels like it's all just so connected that it's hard to ask how it transitioned because it seems just so obvious for me as knowing you a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 36:38

I guess it has transitioned, but it's more like it's compiled.

SPEAKER_00: 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:43

Like I said, I didn't want to let the photography go. I wanted to expand it. So I added something else into it. And I also did some drawings and learned to draw better, which helped with wood burning. Ooh, tell us about that. The first time I was diagnosed with cancer, I was just starting chemo. I was having a very hard time mentally dealing with this, and I really didn't know what to deal with myself, but I felt like I needed to get it out. I remember telling Drew that I didn't feel like I could cry because I thought if I did, I would never stop. And so I had a really hard time letting my emotions about this whole situation out. So we got some paper. I feel like I want to just doodle or something. We got some watercolors and some paper, and I painted this honest, quite frankly, the ugliest thing I've probably painted or drawn or anything else in my whole life. But it was a red gradient background with a blackish brown tree with no leaves. I think even the grass, like on the ground, was brown. It was the most desolate thing you've ever seen in your life. And Drew looked at it and was like, that's dark. That's how I feel. Sounds like rage.

SPEAKER_03: 38:17

It was loss and grief. Everything you were going through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:21

It was very cathartic for me. And it wasn't honestly, I didn't do a whole lot more with it at that point. I think I did a few little pictures, but that was the one that stood out. When I hit my five-year mark, I did a new one. And it was green grass and leaves on the trees. It was very similar. Like the layout was the same, but it was like flowers and clouds and blah blah blah. 12 years it came back at that point. And the weird thing is, I had actually started getting back into art through calligraphy and hand lettering and all this stuff, you know, like got so big, everybody's doing hand lettering and this and that.

SPEAKER_02: 39:10

Oh, I just love it. I bet yours is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 39:13

Oh, it was fun. It was fun. And I did a ton of practice and stuff. And actually, that year, when it was 2017, December, Drew had already gotten me an art desk for Christmas because I was enjoying it so much and really getting into it and everything. I know that I had my surgery, my double mastectomy. It was on December 20th, 2017. Needless to say, a rough year. We were in Tallahassee. My mom came down and spent Christmas with us, and there was just a lot that year. There was a stretch where I just didn't do anything during chemo, but I used art a lot to help occupy me and kind of get me through. But a lot of it was the hand lettering and just funny pictures.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

The Druniverse came together to provide you an art desk.

SPEAKER_01: 40:03

They know me well, but we've been together a long time.

SPEAKER_02: 40:07

That was a beautiful foretelling of my partner is going to need this outlet for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_01: 40:16

You're a hundred percent correct. And that's not unusual. Not unusual. They're good at doing that kind of thing. So it's really wonderful. Then the hand lettering moved into well, if I can do this, I don't want to just do what I've been doing. I want to do some more things. So then I started learning how to draw little succulents and flowers and then bigger flowers. And then I was like, if I can do this, I can draw whatever I want. And then, yeah, it just kind of blew up from there. It's just been so much fun and empowering, really. I never knew I could do this. My parents were shocked. They're like, who are you even? Because I had never, like I said, you should see. I found a couple of my art projects that my mom kept all these years, and I was like, for the love of God, this is trash. This is like these are the worst things I've ever seen in my life. I get it. I made it, whatever.

SPEAKER_03: 41:18

But that's a good mama move.

SPEAKER_02: 41:24

I like that. I can't believe you. Not only take that off the refrigerator, we can just go ahead and burn the refrigerator.

SPEAKER_00: 41:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 41:34

I doubt that. But you speak to something that a lot of people have about art, which is I'm never gonna be good enough. I'm too scared to put my pen to paper. I'm too scared to put my paintbrush to any sort of canvas.

SPEAKER_01: 41:51

That's step one. And then let's fast forward to putting your art on Instagram. That is terrifying. Terrifying. Because people say horrible, hurtful things online anonymously. Fortunately, I have not had that happen when I've posted a lot of my things. I'm selective about where I put it and how I put it out there and I'm learning, blah, blah, blah. I've not had some of the experiences that some people I know have had, unfortunately. Go through cancer twice and see if you give a fuck what somebody says online about a photo you did. It's like, really?

SPEAKER_02: 42:30

You are you've already shown more courage than that cowardly individual. Yeah. Can pull out of their ass.

SPEAKER_03: 42:40

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, what are you gonna do? Yeah, not waste a breath on them.

SPEAKER_01: 42:46

Yeah. That's a powerful message. My boobs tried to kill me. What do you got? Bring it. And I know I joke about it.

SPEAKER_02: 42:56

No, but I appreciate a good joke. And then fighting boobs are like an image that I think I could draw.

SPEAKER_00: 43:05

I wouldn't see it.

SPEAKER_02: 43:06

I will share it with me too later.

SPEAKER_03: 43:09

I was gonna say, I think we're getting a message later. I'm here for that.

SPEAKER_02: 43:13

Triple D fights 32B with a snap of a blast strap.

SPEAKER_03: 43:25

Oh my gosh, we just created our own boobs.

SPEAKER_02: 43:32

It's like, oh no, I'm gonna fall down. I'm in the booth room. Can I ask you though? And this is one of those questions that people don't want to ask. I'm going to ask you because you always have the right to say you're not comfortable talking about it. Yeah. But a lot of people who have gone through mastectomies or any sort of very life-changing illness or surgeries, what did that do to your head space about how you felt about yourself, about your body, about you as a vehicle? You said it jokingly, your boobs tried to kill you, but they did. Yeah. What do you do with that?

SPEAKER_01: 44:15

I felt betrayed.

SPEAKER_02: 44:17

And once that you got rid of the betrayers, were you?

SPEAKER_01: 44:24

Well, I was kind of pissed because I have always enjoyed flaunting my chest. It was always not like in a I don't know, in an inappropriate way, but I just I enjoyed it. I like wearing a nice dress. I like showing a little cleavage for my wife. I enjoy it. They enjoy it. And I miss that. I do miss that. I've adjusted quite a lot to having my body, my whole body has a different shape than it used to. I'm not sure it's something I will ever fully a hundred percent adjust to, but I don't miss the fact that I didn't have a bunch of extra surgeries solely for the purpose of having boobs. There's so much infection, there's so much that doesn't get said on mainstream ideas of what a woman has to look like with breasts. There's a quickly growing movement of flatties like me who are out there. I have a lot of friends who are in the same position. We didn't want to go through the medical trauma of having breast implants because the failure rate and the infection rate is so much higher than people like to talk about. So I could get on my soapbox on this for a while, but it's true. But at the same time, you have to be able to reconcile what you look like and what you're comfortable presenting to the outside world what's right for you medically and physically. And at this point, I'm quite comfortable. I had large boobs. They were hot and they hurt my back and all these things. I don't miss that at all. I could have had reconstruction, but I chose not to for those reasons that I already said, and I'm okay with that. There are times that I miss the silhouette, is really the best way I can put it. The look of the sexy dress. Not only am I obsessed with classic cars, but I love pinup girls and that kind of style. Oh, yeah. The hourglass figure. Those curves are so gorgeous. Yeah, I know what you mean. Before it came back, I have some pictures of me in black and white polka dot cute little dresses and my little red cardigan. I love that look. And it's really hard to pull off with no boobs. So that's something I had to move away from a little bit. But I found my own style and I incorporate some of that into it. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03: 47:09

Everything you're saying is everything that we all want to hear and want to know. And not only about you river, but in general, that struggle is very real and it is not widely spoken about, unfortunately. And I know off the top of my head, I can think of three women that I know who also have a very similar story and chose to stay flat. And I've never been brave enough to ask them to talk about that, but this is inspiring that. And in fact, when we get off, I want to reach out to one of them specifically because I know she still, although mentally understands and is committed to her decision, her heart still isn't fully connected. And watching that struggle as somebody who loves them deeply, it's so hard to support because you just want them to be happy. And that is so fleeting moment to moment.

SPEAKER_01: 48:10

It is. It is. I think where we were starting to go is about feeling like a woman. Yes. And how many conversations have we had recently about Crohn's and menopause? Or in my case, I didn't go through menopause. I had a hysterectomy because of cancer issues. And so I went through forced menopause way earlier than most people would. You lose that, and then you lose the boobs, and I'm like, what am I?

SPEAKER_02: 48:44

You're also going through a reshaping of your own body, you said, as well. So is that part of this journey for you? Because you said you wanted to be a smaller person, you were embracing a different shape. And I thought, what a beautiful way to say that.

SPEAKER_01: 49:11

So talk about let me just lose all my hair, look like death warmed over because I'm so pale from chemo, have no boobs. I could just keep going. And it's like, what even am I right now? I don't recognize this person that I see in the mirror. I have no idea who this person is, but they are way too pale, and I don't even know. Anyway, it was a big adjustment. That was 2018 was the bulk of that year, it was a bit.

SPEAKER_02: 49:44

That's not that long ago.

SPEAKER_01: 49:45

No, it really isn't. When I started thinking about it, I'm like, and now we're at 2025, so we're what eight years later.

SPEAKER_02: 49:54

Almost eight years later.

SPEAKER_01: 49:55

We're wow, yeah. We're on the uh down end, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, it doesn't, it really isn't that long ago, technically, but it's for a body to go through all that. It feels like so long ago. If and mentally, it feels like a long time ago, and probably I know I blocked some of it. It gets bad, it gets dark. I hit a point with chema the second time that it wasn't that I actively wanted to kill myself, I couldn't keep any food down, I couldn't drink, I was so sick, I just wanted to go to sleep and not wake up. And that is, as I learned from going through counseling, it's still a form of self-harm. Suicidal idea for both. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:41

Yeah, and I get that. You don't want to die, but you don't want to live like that.

SPEAKER_00: 50:48

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 50:50

I'm so glad that you've made it through that.

SPEAKER_01: 50:53

Me too.

SPEAKER_03: 50:54

Yeah, and with so much light, because that's what I was thinking is when you were talking about when you came out and you kept thinking, What am I? What am I alive and full of light? And it is not lost on me that you are during this interview. I I'm so sad that listeners don't get to see this. You have this beautiful ray of light just showing so bright that sometimes I'm like squinting and moving just to be able to catch the details. And then I'm like, oh no, that's her light. Like it's literally and figuratively. So it's that is so traumatic. I could not imagine the depths of hell horrific thoughts and emotions and pain. And to see you come out so alive and so bright and so cheerful, even in the not cheerful moments, like you're an inspiration for sure. I have to ask if we could magic fairy godmother wand give it to you. What would your dream art related job be?

SPEAKER_01: 52:08

Oh, that's honestly that's probably kind of easy because we've been talking about this for several years and just can't figure out how to make it work. I want a cat cafe with all these walls with local art, including my own. That would be it. Hands down. That was the easiest.

SPEAKER_03: 52:29

All over the United States. Yes, all over the world. I limit ourselves, right? Like a catateria. I love it.

unknown: 52:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 52:38

The Japanese do, but local artwork and local uplifting.

SPEAKER_01: 52:44

That would be it. That would be it.

SPEAKER_03: 52:47

That means a lot. I love it.

SPEAKER_01: 52:49

Making it happen is a whole nother thing, but we'll see. We'll see what comes.

SPEAKER_03: 52:53

You never amazing what intuition and manifestation and just leaning into intentions does. I could go on for hours about the little things that I never thought I could do or be. And I'm so far past that. You've already shown us how much you are tenacious and will always come back fighting in a loving, kind, and shining my light kind of way.

SPEAKER_01: 53:17

I try. All of us have bad days and days where we're not as nice as we'd like to be, or whatever. This is how I try to be. And sometimes there have definitely been times where it is a struggle, and I have to make myself be as nice as I would like to be. I don't know how else to say that. But I think that honestly, between art and my spiritual path, it has made a massive difference because 10 years ago, definitely 10 years ago, I had no idea what the next few years were gonna bring as far as art and could the craft and just all these things. And it just boggles my mind sometimes when I look back and go, holy crap, who was that person? Because I'm so different now, in a good way, in a good way, and I love it.

SPEAKER_02: 54:14

River, since you're allotted me a few extra minutes of your time, can we talk about the crone? Because that is something that you and I probably being around the same age and we're talking body image and all the things. And you and I had shared quite a bit about, we had very similar reactions to even the term crone, because it sounded like old crony, it sounded haggish.

SPEAKER_01: 54:47

And so I still don't love the word, to be quite frank. If I'm being totally honest, I don't love the word. I love the mindset, like the badassery of it.

SPEAKER_02: 54:58

The badassery, right, where men who are older are called silver fox. And if anybody could see that, she just rolled her eyes and stuck her tongue out. Very unlike a crone.

SPEAKER_01: 55:13

Love it. I am very unlike a crone in so in most ways.

SPEAKER_02: 55:17

Me too. And that I think you and I were saying super similar things at coming at this. We can look at the negativity towards the word, towards the images, crone Barbie with the stags and the bags. I mean, you can look at it that way. That's superficial. You said something that really hit me, which is do I even have enough wisdom, enough experience that's helpful to anyone to even be considered a crone? Or having been in touch with nature, but not necessarily choosing a specific spiritual path until as of late. Yeah. Does that qualify you as a crone?

SPEAKER_01: 56:01

Yeah, I think those are very interesting questions because it's not just about how you look. There has to be something more to it because we know there is more to it than that. That is still something I wonder about. I'm like, do I? And but all the things we've just been talking about, I've been through some shit. So I feel like, yes, I'm feeling more and more, I should say, that yes, I do have some interesting things to contribute. I do have comments to make. And I have to okay, so our chat for just as an example, our chat threads. I am really bad about just saying, oh, that's interesting. Oh, yeah, I totally agree. Oh, yeah. Very superficial comments. And I've started to notice going, I really have more thoughts in my head than this four-word comment. And maybe it's time to start trying to figure out how to get those out. A lot of it's in my head, and I'm in my head, you know, going, Oh, I don't really have anything good to contribute. There's other people in our group that are just like fucking, I d I don't even know, the like amazing, amazing wordsmiths. That's what they are, including you, amazing wordsmith. But uh there's a few in our group that are just amazing, amazing writers and can put what they're thinking and feeling and observing into such beautiful terms, and that's not really me. So sometimes I feel inadequate to explain everything that's in my head. So I'm trying that's something I'm working on right now is trying to do to expand beyond. Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03: 57:57

It's interesting because for me, the word crone always felt like wow, you're so wise. I want to make you my godmother. You're so important and you're so powerful with your wisdom that I need you or want you in my life. To me, that was always like what Crone uh embodied. But as I'm getting older, thinking about that is a very different concept.

SPEAKER_02: 58:30

I can honestly say I never thought about any of those Chloe thought it was when she was younger. She thought it was very much very godmotherish, wise.

SPEAKER_03: 58:44

But as she's getting older, it's more scary because now I'm like, ooh, the humble side of me is more like, oh, that's not me. Like that imposter syndrome that I feel like I hear you're saying a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 58:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 59:00

But it's the reminder of, well, when I was a child, I believed so shit, five years ago, I would have even said, before all this gray hair started coming, I would have said, No, that's like an empowerment, you know, like you've made queen status, like you have earned it, you've put in the legwork, you've come out not angry and hateful and aggressive and dark, right? All the negative, if if we're even gonna throw that in, because life is all about that duality, right? So it's about a how can we translate these negative experiences into a light message, like not light and fluffy and butterflies and rainbows, although those are great, but light, like inspirational light.

SPEAKER_01: 59:49

Yeah. Well, I think in that original conversation, I even said I feel like an imposter, but I think it's weird for me too, because I don't have kids. I still feel in my brain more of a kid myself. Haven't but I haven't been through that. Now, what a lot of people don't know is that I do have a son who I went through open adoption with many years ago. He's doing great. He's just I would say he's a great kid, but he's not a kid anymore. He's in his 30s. And so I have I have been through some of the kind of rites of passage, like childbirth. And I think I don't know if that makes any difference, like having kids or not having kids. I don't, I used to think it made a lot of difference, but now I'm not really so sure that it does, at least in terms of being a crone and being wise and understanding and having knowledge of things, because not everybody who's had kids has been through the things I've been through. Everybody has their own things that they've done and where they come from and experiences that color who they are now. And I think about my life. Let's say I'd never had cancer and I was married to a man and I had five kids and all that makes my chest get tight. It's not me. It's not me. And I'm good with that. It just we all have a different path. I know it sounds so trite, but that wasn't the path for me. And I'm glad that I knew that when I got pregnant, and I didn't want to have an abortion, but that really is the big thing, right? It was my choice. But I also wasn't ready to be a mom at all. I could barely take care of myself. That I was waiting tables at steak and shake, living in a little crappy apartment. I had no money, I was not ready. And that's not the kind of life I wanted for him. So it all worked out really very well. But going through that, that has to color your experiences as well. Because it took me a while to get through that. That was rough. Even though I knew it was the right decision, and I knew it was the right decision for him and for me. Talk about having your heart ripped out of your chest and stomped on. It was rough.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:26

I wonder if the societal rites of passage, based off of we'll just say maybe our born gender, our cisgender, you know, like the boobs or having the babies, if we were a born woman. And I wonder if that somehow is connected to the trepidation to the word crone. Because in your shared story, you opted to give away those boobs and not put them back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:00

I think that the idea of the crone is sounds like we're done. What's next? Death. It's like, okay, I'm a crone. Next up, highway to hell. Whatever we do. Sorry. Which is a good song, actually. It is a good song. But but seriously, it's like, okay, well, I can't have kids anymore. I'm not doing this. I'm certainly not turning anybody on with my saggy boobs. So I guess I'm done.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:37

But it was inspiration. It's retirement. It's travel. It's whatever the hell I want. It's literally whatever I want. Do I want to own a home? Do I want to live in a vehicle? Do I want to travel? Do I even want to have a? To me, that's what Crone meant is the unlimited options and absorbed, learned, and challenged paths that created and softened those edges and lines.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:05

So why do you feel different now?

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:08

Because we're talking about potentially me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:12

Conceptually.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:13

And that's exactly my point. I think that it's that imposture part of, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:20

But I don't think it's just that. I think there's more there. How do I view myself and how does the world view me because I'm no longer gonna walk into a club with my boobs on display and get the attention of 20 different people? That was back in my 20s, granted. But it's still the same idea. Who doesn't want to be attractive? And the word crone does not inspire attractiveness on any level in my head, physical attractiveness. Let me back that up.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:58

After a certain age, we become irrelevant. We're not relevant to commercial advertising. You're not even trying to sell to me. You know what people try to sell to someone my age? The double ARP magazine and the timeshare. And then I'll get assisted living things and soon to have Medicare.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:21

Oh, life insurance. Don't forget that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:24

Oh, yeah. So you be you become irrelevant. In a way that in Western culture made us feel valuable. We don't even get fitted clothing offered to us anymore. No, it's all ugly big moo moos and which is what they used to do to pregnant women that used to drive me nuts because when I was pregnant, you would either get the tents or you where you looked as if you had no shape, or they dressed you up like a little kid with bows and really weird accessories. I don't know. Being a female is extremely complex. There's a level of danger, there's a level of vulnerability that men can't understand. And I'm not hating on men, I'm just saying it's much more complex than one can imagine. We were talking earlier, and you can speak to this river about hair. And we were talking to with a friend of ours who is a black woman, gorgeous, and she chooses to plait her hair with blonde extensions. But the point is that how many men say, Oh, I love a woman with long, luscious hair, and have they any idea what that costs to take care of that? Not just cost financially, the time, the energy, or we all don't have beautiful hair like Chloe, who is she's got this beautiful straight hair. If you mind goes, you know, so it takes so much time, and then you lose your hair during chemo.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:12

Yes. That was actually it's funny because before, so obviously I went through it twice, lost my hair, all of my hair twice. But the first time I remember not just thinking, said that is the least of my worries. You know, I'm much more interested in living to C40 than my hair, it'll grow back, no biggie, until it started falling out. And then it was just like, I've had short hair most of my life. My hair's never been beyond here. And man, I cried when the hair started coming out. I knew I wasn't gonna look like me anymore, and I was like, what's it gonna look like when it comes back? And oh my god, I'm gonna be so ugly. It's just turns out, although mentally I knew that there were much bigger things to worry about than hair falling out that would grow back. It was just such a physical manifestation of what was happening inside me. Because until the hair started falling out, you could look at me and even know that I had anything going on. I didn't look sick, I didn't even particularly feel sick at that point. But when the hair started falling out, then it was like showing on the outside what was happening inside me. And in a way, it was upsetting, but it was also on the other hand, it was also I was happy that people could look at me and know that there was some big fucking shit going on in my life, and it was obvious there there's just so much layers, yeah. And I said I was not ever putting a wig on. Yeah, no, that wasn't that I did. I've still got a couple of them. The second time I went with fun wigs.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:08

Yeah, you said you said something pretty powerful there that made me tear up pretty heavily. My family member before COVID, I want to say it was 2016, maybe 2015, had a very similar experience with breast cancer. I referenced it a few minutes ago, actually. I don't want to speak for her and tell her story, but essentially for her own personal reasons, it was to be kept a secret. And so only I knew about it. And being in a different state that was so challenging to find a balance of travel, support, empathy, but also not even being in that position, it was so hard for me to understand how the rest of the world continued because I just wanted to scream it from the top of the mountain. So I commend you for taking so much darkness and pain and anguish and really transforming it and using those as tools to try to be better for the next five minutes every two minutes. That's I feel like that's how you're pushing it through.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:28

That's definitely a good bit of thank you. I really appreciate that. For me, I felt like there wasn't really a choice. For example, terminology, things people say when you have cancer. Oh, you're so strong. No, I'm fucking not. I just don't want to die. I'm not a warrior. Don't stop it. You know, like, oh, you're such a warrior. You fought so hard against cancer. So, what does that say about the people who didn't make it? They just didn't want it bad enough, or there's a lot of terminology that's very triggering for me around the fact that this room is fucking pink is quite shocking, to be honest. I yeah, even two years ago, I would have said no, never. But for some reason, I feel like I'm kind of reclaiming a little bit of pink in my life, and I'm okay with that. I'm good with it. Because I chose it, but that's always me. I know other people who have been very secretive, for example, about cancer. I'm like, why is this a state secret? I don't understand. People have cancer all the time, all the time. Why is I've never really understood that whole this must be a secret cup from everyone. I don't want anyone to know, but I've never understood that about a lot of things. When I came out, I came out rip roaring, like, fuck you, I'm gay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:57

But I yes, that's what we love about you, River. You are like, this is who I am. But here, I'll give you a big hug because I love everybody unless you're an asshole.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:10

Yeah. Oh, that's so true.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:11

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:13

So true. I'm good with everybody until they're a jerk.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:17

But it's just that well, now it's like yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:23

See, that's that is so on point. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:28

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:29

Like, I'll treat you the way you deserve to be treated. All right, I want one of these stickers I just saw the other day that says I'm obsessed with stickers. That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:40

But someone gave me tons of stickers for my birthday. I love stickers, boxes and boxes.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:47

I actually did that for an occupation for a while. I was a screen printer, sticker manufacturer here locally. I'm acting with the government. Oh my God. We can geek out. Anyway, sorry, I digress. That's your favorite sticker.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:01

Oh, there we go. My best friend gave this to me last year for my birthday. Oh my gosh, that's so cute. I love it. And even it's even witchy on the back. Like, I don't know where he found this, but I thought that was a journal at first. These are the stickers that still need to go in it. The whole book is made up of sticker paper, like backer. So I have.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:28

You can stick and restick anytime you want. Yes. It's like the commitment ever. That is, I love that. Sticking with no commitment.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:37

Why did I not manufacture this? And why do I not have thousands of them? It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:43

I know, I know. Because I have a really hard time, yes, putting stickers on things that I know I can't get them off of. It's just really traumatic for me. So now I don't have the same problem until I really am sure that I want to put it somewhere. But I also have it in a way that I can enjoy. I can look at all my stickers. They're not just stuck in a drawer.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:09

You're spying on me. I just opened the drawer to pull out my stack of stickers as you said that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:15

I have a whole, I still have more in a drawer.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:17

So this world is so chaotic and very divided currently, as we all feel and know. So I was wondering what words of guidance could you leave us with, whether it's an affirmation, a sense of unity, just something to help us flow with the spirit of one another. Do you have anything you'd like to leave us with as we ask all of our guests?

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:47

What I try to strive for is authenticity. I gotta be me. And if I'm me and you don't like me, then you're not my person. So I'm really trying to just fully embrace that because I'm not gonna be for everybody. Not everybody's for me. That's okay. It's a big world. There's a lot of people out there. Our people are out there, even if we find them across the country through interesting things on the internet. We our people are out there, and the people that will appreciate what I create are out there. Not everybody will love it. That's okay. That's why it's called art. Everybody has a different idea of what they like and their aesthetic, and but could we not tear people down just because their aesthetic is not what we would choose? Could we not belittle my marriage because it's my lifestyle? Could we not do all those things and just appreciate people for the beautiful things they bring? Some of the folks I have met on this path are some of the most caring and thoughtful and loving people that I've ever met. And it's not found in a church. It's not found at a revival tent. Because I've never felt so judged as I have in different churches. And I don't get that with this path. Not that I'm perfect or that I can't be corrected and I can't learn things because that's what we all need to do. But we don't need to be judged for how pious we are. And I think that's a lot of what is the ugly in our world.

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:46

Well said. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:50

Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. It's just this has been amazing. Thank you so much for including me and letting me get on here and talk.

unknown: 1:17:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:02

Thank you, my friends.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:03

Love you both and see you soon.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:05

Bye, honey. Bye. Thanks for diving into the depths with us today. If you enjoyed this episode, show your support at buymeacoffee.com forward slash mystical mermaid lounge, as every little ripple helps keep the magic flowing. Would you like some more deep soul yearning conversations? Well then swim on over to our sister podcast, Past Life's Cafe, where Keone deep dives into those past life experiences. Also, we'd love to hear from you. Please don't forget to rate and review and drop your feedback and comments at our website, mysticalmermaidlounge.buzzsprout.com. Thank you again so much, and don't forget to catch us at the next high tide. Bye bye.